S1E10: Andy McNab on Love: ISTP & ESFJ Compatibility

Brought to you by So Syncd, the first personality type dating app and website.

You can listen to the full episode of our podcast on Personality Love Lab, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

This week we explore ISTP and ESFJ compatibility with two special guests. We are joined by Andy McNab (ISTP) and Lily McNab (ESFJ) in their first ever exclusive interview as a couple. Andy is an ex-SAS hero, functioning psychopath and best-selling author. Andy and Lily met 22 years ago and they are a golden personality pair. In this episode, they talk about their polar opposite personalities, how Andy’s psychopathy impacts their relationship and their Badger Cam.

Jess (INFP): Hi, welcome to Personality Love Lab, where we interview real people and real couples to delve deeper into personality types and love.

Lou (ESFJ): This podcast is brought to you by the sisters who created So Syncd, the dating app that matches compatible personality types.

Jess (INFP): My name is Jess. I'm an INFP, also known as The Dreamer.

Lou (ESFJ): And I'm Lou, an ESFJ, also known as The Supporter.

Today on Personality Love Lab we have two very special guests. We've managed to secure an exclusive interview with Andy McNab and his wife Lily McNab.

Jess (INFP): This is the first interview that they have ever done together.

Lou (ESFJ): Andy is the author of the bestselling book Bravo Two Zero, in which he writes about his time in the SAS, including a mission during the Gulf war which resulted in him being imprisoned and tortured for six weeks. He also co-authored The Good Psychopath’s Guide to Success. Andy and Lily have been together for 22 years and married for 20 of those years.

Jess (INFP): Andy is an ISTP, also known as The Artisan, and Lily is an ESFJ, also known as The Supporter. They would be a golden pair on So Syncd. We're really excited to chat to you guys.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Great to be here!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Very happy to be here.

Lou (ESFJ): To begin with, how did you guys meet?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): We met in publishing.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. Years before we actually got together. I’d got out of the military and wrote my very first book. Lily was working for the publishers. She didn't have anything to do with the publishing of my book, but in publishing there's loads of these conventions and there's all sorts of sales pitches and all that sort of stuff. So she'd be part of all that. Then she left to go and work for another publisher, so I didn't see her for, I don’t know, a couple of years, I suppose?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think it was two years. You found out that I was single. And you were single.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. By then we were virtually living next door to each other. We were both living in London at the time. I was at living in London Bridge.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): And I was Shad Thames.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Shad Thames, which is Tower Bridge.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Near each other.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Literally it was like spitting distance from each other.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He asked me out because he'd heard I was single and asked me for a date. Our first date was at the Prospect of Whitby, which is the oldest pub in London. Or England?

Andy McNab (ISTP): London, yes, it’s down by the old dock area. It’s great.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): A very romantic little pub.

Andy McNab (ISTP): There's a noose hanging out over the river.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I mean it was nice because I already knew him really well because we'd worked together. We kind of knew each other. Like you said, we’d chatted at sales conferences and stuff quite a lot, so it didn't feel like I was going out with a brand-new stranger because I already knew him.

Jess (INFP): Was it very clear that it was a date or could it have just been a catching up as friends?

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s a weird one. I don’t know. It felt alright. Did it feel like a date?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I mean, I think you phrased it as a catch up as friends, but I always felt it was a date.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, I suppose so.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): We hadn't really had any contact in between for two years and then it was suddenly out of the blue and you knew I was single. So, yeah, I took it as a date, but I think you probably said…

Andy McNab (ISTP): No I probably didn’t!

Lou (ESFJ): And here we are, 22 years later!

Andy McNab (ISTP): Exactly! Did I have to pay as well? I probably paid as well.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I’m sure you did.

Jess (INFP): And in that two years, did you think about each other during that time or was it not until you knew that each other were single that you actually came into each other's heads properly?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No, I just didn’t think about you.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I’d heard about what you were doing, but not thinking, ‘Oh yeah, I’ll try and get in touch with you.’ No. It was literally because I heard you were living down the road.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Also, I think he was the author and he’d been off to The States. You were filming in The States and stuff, weren’t you? You were in The States quite a lot of that time.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. Basically I was there for quite a few years.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think I’d just forgotten about him if I’m really honest.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Nice!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): So, no! The answer is no.

Jess (INFP): What was your first date like?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, it was alright. Well clearly it was alright.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It was great! Because we already knew each other, we had lots to talk about. We just chatted away.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. Just talking about stuff really, weren’t we? About what you'd been doing and what I’d been doing.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It was so a date.

Lou (ESFJ): Did you kiss?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, we did. We snogged in the car park, so it was totally a date.

Jess (INFP): Yeah, that’s definitely a date.

Lou (ESFJ): So there was a lot of chemistry anyway?

Andy McNab (ISTP): You mean did I want to shag her? Yeah!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Which is not a bad thing in a future husband.

Lou (ESFJ): No, that’s great!

Andy McNab (ISTP): There was one time before we didn’t see each other for a couple of years, you dropped something down and then, because you had a short skirt on, when you, not knelt down, but squatted down…

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It was in the 90s or something.

Andy McNab (ISTP):  Big shoulder pads and all that.

Lou (ESFJ): Squatted down!?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Whatever you were doing, getting down and all that. That was all good because the skirt rode up.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): My god! You never told me this!!! That’s so funny. I thought you liked me for my charm, wit and intelligence, but no, it was just the good knicker flash.

Jess (INFP): And did you come away from your first date and were you really excited to see each other again?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): We were actually.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I mean, when we were working together in publishing, I didn't really fancy him then because he had…he was really fun and I really liked him and he was really chatty, but he had this really terrible handlebar moustache. I think it was like some ex-military thing. It was quite a seventies porn-looking moustache.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I looked like a German porn guy.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It just so put me off him. I just never really got beyond that. But when we met at the Prospect of Whitby, he'd been all Hollywood-ized. He came back from Hollywood and he'd shaved this horrible moustache off. And you were wearing Robert De Niro’s leather jacket because you’d been working with him. He looked really cool.

Andy McNab (ISTP): What you do is you get all the clothes…well, you don’t get all the clothes, but with the wardrobes, you’ve got all the different clothes and all that. If they're wearing a leather jacket, there are about eight leather jackets. You just see the wardrobe guys and you go, ‘Are you going to give us one of them once it's all finished?’ They go, ‘Yeah, alright, take it all this brand new stuff.’ It's great.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): This is frighteningly shallow on both sides!

Lou (ESFJ): Apart from being physically attracted to each other, what really attracted you to each other at the beginning?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I think that she's just kind and…Empathy, empathy. Sometimes to the point of annoyance. She does worry about everything and everybody and wants to, you know, do the right thing, which in general is really good, isn't it? But sometimes it does become a bit of a pain, but it's alright.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think on the plus side, it's kind of really nice and you’re kind and lovely and think of others. I guess the downside is that maybe we're a bit people-pleasing sometimes and you have to be a bit aware not to go that way. Whereas you might not worry about others enough! More about yourself. Whereas I wouldn’t worry enough about myself but more about others.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I know. It works. Yeah, empathy. 

Lily McNab (ESFJ): And then what did I see in you? He has a real quiet confidence that I like. I can remember being at a party and you just kind of feel his presence. He's kind of got it all covered and everything's fine, but he's not showy-offy. He's not one of these large, showy-offy men, but he's super, super confident but in a very quiet way and I really liked that. He's really practical, action man-ey and gets on with it. You know that if the shit hits the fan, he will be there and he'll sort it out and there's something so relaxing about that for me. I don’t have to worry.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s so relaxing, she doesn’t do anything!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He’s got it covered; you know?

Lou (ESFJ): That’s so interesting. I think people may assume you might be an extravert, but actually you’re not.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No. Actually, the older I get, the more, the more I think about it: I just don't like gobby people, you know? Bizarrely, working in media, because it’s very difficult to show if you're good or bad, there are a lot of gobby people. Like if there's a problem, they’ll just shout over it as opposed to sorting it out. I actually get more, if you like, intolerant of mad gobby people.

Jess (INFP): I feel like you can be very charming, right?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. There’s a time and a place for everything, isn't there, which literally happened a few days before we were sat here. I was at a meeting, you know, trendy Soho or that sort of stuff, actors and all that. I'm sitting there going, ‘This is bullshit.’ But you just sit there. So rather than joining in, I’m just smiling, like, ‘It will all end soon.’

Jess (INFP): When did you first consider yourself a couple?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I suppose when you moved into the London Bridge flat.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, but really from that first date we'd had at the pub, we never really weren't dating from that moment, were we?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I suppose so.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I guess we were together and we definitely knew it was serious, but didn’t know where is was going to go, obviously.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I was going away and you were going away as well. You were doing stuff in New York anyway, so we were always bouncing around.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): There was a lot of travel involved. He would be one place. I'd be somewhere else and we would just meet up and then go again. But we were still a couple, I would say, while we were doing that. Kind of from fairly soon on, weren't we?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I can’t remember not being a couple.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Then you moved into the flat and the cleaner I had was really annoyed because of someone else making a mess in the flat.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): She was jealous! She loved him and she didn't want me there at all, did she?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, because you’re messy.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I was not messy. I'm the neat one, actually.

Jess (INFP): So you didn't have a conversation where you were like, ‘Right, we're now officially a couple,’ it just kind of happened?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Just happened, I think.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It just happened. No, I don't remember you ever saying to me, ‘Do you want to move in?’

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, I think you were moving out of your flat. You probably manufactured it, didn’t you!?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh! I was probably moving out.

Andy McNab (ISTP): And it was like, ‘You might as well move in.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yes. I think it was like casually done. It wasn't like a dramatic, ‘Oh, I love you so much. Would you like to live with me?’ It was just like, ‘This makes sense.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): I was waiting for her to say, ‘Do you want some money towards the electrics.’ That didn't happen either!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No.

Andy McNab (ISTP): She just moved in!

Lou (ESFJ): And when did you first discover your personality types?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well, the actual types? It was recently for me. It was when I was on holiday in New Zealand. We were hanging around and someone suggested it. I can't remember who. We just all did it and we found out [our personality types]. That was probably three years or four years ago, something like that? It made sense to me. We'd had our personalities tested in a different way previously, so it consolidated what we had already known.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, because actually then it showed that it actually did work as well because we had a rough idea of where we were anyway. Doing the Myers & Briggs test in New Zealand actually reinforced what we already knew. It was good.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It felt very accurate.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, it did.

Lou (ESFJ): Everything you were saying is very typical of your types.

Jess (INFP): Has knowing your personality types impacted your relationship in any way?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I think so, certainly. Before when we’d done the test, when I was asked to be part of the trials to do with psychopathy, I found l registered quite high on the scale. It was done at the Department of Experimental Psychology at Oxford. I came back and I said to you, ‘Oh, I'm a psychopath.’ You went, ‘Yeah? And? What’s new?’ Interestingly, from there, for me it was great because actually it was like a little light going on. You think, ‘Ahh right, that's why it is.’

It's a clinical thing where a thing called the amygdala in the brain doesn't work [for me], so it does all different things. You think differently. The way that you look at the world is different. So that was great. The question we had was then, ‘How come it [the relationship] works for you?’ How does she then conduct that. Actually, from the psychologist’s viewpoint, they were saying, ‘Well actually the relationship really works,’ because what she does is grip me, but in a subtle way, because she knows how to do it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): They actually did tests on me. They did major tests on him and discovered he was off the Richter scale of psychopathy really, weren’t you? But as a good psychopath and there is a difference. He's not a kind of crazy mad psycho killer psychopath, but a good psychopath. But because of that, they were then interested in me doing some just really simple questionnaire type tests to see what kind of wife a psychopath would pick. When the results of those tests came through, I was like off the Richter scale in the opposite direction.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Benign Buddha.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I was soft and sensual. I was all about the feelings, receiving, responding and terribly good. In fact, the professor who did the test gave me the results by email and he said, ‘I can't believe how extreme you are. How opposite you are to Andy.’ And he said, ‘You sound absolutely amazing. And the only other thing I've got to say to you is…’ and then he wrote in capitals: RUN!

Andy McNab (ISTP): In fact, I didn’t know that!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Did I not tell you about that!?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Brilliant.

Jess (INFP): You said that you scored high on the psychopathy scale, when did you first realize that you perhaps saw the world differently?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Oh, and ever since I was kid. Even as a kid. Because I was adopted, I was in the kid's home until I was five and then I was adopted when I was five. I thought that was the normal thing you do. You know, you sort of go from a kid's home, you go to a house and then I thought, ‘Well, I’ll stay here until I'm 16 and then I'll leave.’ That's always been in my head because I think, ‘Well, yeah, I don’t really want to be here.’ I want to do other things. So the way I looked at the world was different and certainly, in a way as a kid, it’s counterproductive.

We moved around a lot in South London where we used to live, so I went to nine different schools, but it didn't really matter because I didn't want to get taught anyway. I thought, ‘Well, I don't need to do that.’ So literally as a 16-year-old, I was what was known as Key Stage Two reading - I had the reading age of a nine-year-old. But I thought, ‘What do I care, you know? Because I know everything will be alright.’ And what it does [being a psychopath], it gives you an amazing amount of confidence, but certainly as a kid with nothing to back it up with, because you’re thinking, ‘I don't need to go to school. I'd rather go at work or do those sorts of things.’ It has always been different.

Even when I joined the military, it has always been different. Actually, I really liked it. I thought it was alright. You hear all the horror stories, the bullying, the suicides and all that. In my head I’m going, ‘Well, they're just weak. They shouldn't be here.’ It's clearly not the case. But that existence, I thought it was alright. I thought it was okay.

I didn’t really think about it, because that's one of the things that the psychopathy gives you, is that you really don't care. It's like, ‘It just is what it is.’ I was then getting asked to do these experiments, going through trials. You do a number of things. You do like therapy like, ‘When was the first time you saw your mother?’ All that sort of stuff. Then you do the more clinical trials. If I went to court and they were claiming that I was criminally insane, I am three points ahead of where I would be to go to Broadmoor [a high-security psychiatric hospital] because it's a scale up to forty. I'm way above them. I'm just three points off the maximum. There's only about four people that are maximum.

Jess (INFP): Really?

Andy McNab (ISTP): They’re the serial killers, that sort of thing. For me it was like the lightbulb going, ‘Oh right. It all makes sense now.’ I understood what goes on in the brain or actually what doesn't go on in the brain, why the neurons retrace and make new pathways and why that happens. For me, that was like a light going on like, ‘Great. I get it. I understand now.’ It didn’t change much.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You only got diagnosed as a psychopath, what, five years ago? Seven years?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, longer than that. Eight or nine years.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): We'd been married for a long, long time before we ever knew that he was a psychopath, but I probably knew about two years into marriage that you weren't normal. I knew there was something odd but I didn’t realise it was called psychopathy. I just knew he was odd and

I can remember the exact moment when I thought, ‘This man is weird.’ I had a cat and my cat died. He had been poisoned by rat poison overnight. He had died in the cat basket and rigor mortis had set in so the cat was frozen solid, like a polo mint. There was like a hole in the middle because it just formed a complete circle in the shape of the cat basket.

I didn't know the cat was dead, but Andy came in. He saw the cat was dead and he was carrying a paintbrush, a jar of white spirit and a big jar of paint on the other hand, so he didn't have any hands to pick up this cat. He put the paint jar down and then threaded the cat over his forearm and then picked the jar of paint back up again. Then he came into the sitting room and said, Lily, ‘I think your cat has died.’ I looked at him and literally my beloved kitten is swinging off his arm. There was no sympathy, no empathy, no hug, no ‘I’ll make you a cup of tea.’ I think he should have kept it in the cat basket or he should have brought it in on both his hands like a presentation because he knew I'd be so upset. But there was none of that. It was swinging on his arm. Then it gets worse. I then burst into tears and he doesn't hug me, he doesn't get me a cup of tea and he doesn't do anything. I'm thinking, ‘Hmm. This is a bit weird.’ He just like stands there with this cat swinging off his arm.

And we were leaving for holiday, weren’t we? The next day. And you said, ‘Well, I know the cat is insured and you can claim it back if they get rat poisoned. We’re going on holiday tomorrow, so we can't do that, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to put the cat in the freezer. We’re going to go on holiday and when we come back from holiday, we’re going to defrost the cat, take it off to the vets and then we’ll get the money back. I just knew in that instant that this man is weird. That’s not a normal response. There was just a real lack of empathy. A complete lack of empathy and just the general oddness.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I mean, what’s the point of insurance if you’re not going to use it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It was just hilarious. I mean, not at the time. I can remember having to say to him, ‘This is not normal behavior and no, we're not putting the cat in the freezer.’ I made him bury the cat properly. It had a proper burial. I also pointed out that if someone's beloved cat has just died, you're supposed to hug them and make them a cup of tea. Then put your arm around them and be nice. I had to tell you that, didn’t I?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I think that’s how it all works. You just go, ‘Right, that's what you’ve got to do.’ You know? I don't actually feel…

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He has no empathy.

Andy McNab (ISTP): She goes, ‘So what you've got to do is: if you see this face, what you’ve got to do is make a cup of tea.’ She gave me, what are those smiley faces?

Lou (ESFJ): Emojis.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Emojis.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): That was shocking, because he was learning what these emojis were…happy, smiley, just a normal face. It's not like the complicated ones, like rage or grief or something. Just like happy and sad. It was all brand new to you. We were about 17 years into marriage at this point. I thought, ‘Why have you never known I was sad for 17 years? What is going on!’

Jess (INFP): What happened when you were sad? What would you do, Andy?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, she would tell me she was sad, so I'll go, ‘Right, I've got to make a cup of tea.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You would naturally do nothing so I’ve become quite independent and good at looking after my own feelings. I also try and grip you and say, ‘When this happens…’

Like at funerals, Andy can be very hearty at funerals. You're going to a funeral and everybody's mourning, grieving and crying and he would walk up and he'll just go, ‘Hello!’ and shake hands with everyone and tell some hilarious anecdote about his journey up there. You’ll then tell some funny stories.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I don’t do that anymore, do I?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I have to say to him, ‘It's a funeral. Everybody's really overwhelmed with grief. You just look at their faces, just be led by them and just kill the heartiness.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s very hard to recognise faces. It's slightly like autism. Certainly a child with autism has a lot of trouble identifying [emotions]. Part of it is not identifying things like sadness or those sort of emotions, because it doesn't actually register, so I don't really get it. Or you see someone at a funeral and you go, ‘Ahh, hello mate! How are you?’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I mean, you have emotions, you do get angry, but it's not such a great range.

Jess (INFP): I guess you have them yourself but is it harder to recognize them in other people?

Andy McNab (ISTP): It's very hard to recognize them.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It’s impossible!

Lou (ESFJ): Are you good at faking emotions?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. It's called cold empathy. One of the reasons why I'm functional with the psychopathy is that what I can do, and you can see it actually when the scans are done, is create what's called cold empathy. What happens is, I don’t know, say your dogs are dead. I really don't care, but I understand you care. I understand then I have to show, ‘I got it. I understand that you’re sad,’ so like flowers. I used to get it all wrong. I’d think, ‘Oh right, it’ll be a cup of tea,’ and she's like, ‘No, it’s flowers and a card.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh and birthdays! Literally two years running he missed my birthday, didn't you? Two years running. I thought, ‘No, third time, that is not happening.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. Loads of cards, so I understand. Events like Christmas, if they never existed…

Lily McNab (ESFJ): To be fair, you don't care about them at all. Which I hate because I try to make his birthday really special and really wonderful because I'm so loving and lovely and you really don't care at all.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s great, but if they never happened, I wouldn’t care.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, he really doesn’t care.

Jess (INFP): Every decision for you, it's just completely driven by logic?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, it’s black and white thinking.

Jess (INFP): It's like, ‘Oh, they've watched this and they're not smiling so they’re probably upset?’

Andy McNab (ISTP): So that means they're upset. Yeah. And just trying to gauge where they are on the scale of upset, hence the emojis.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You're also deciding who you want to bring on your cold empathy with, aren't you? With some people you wouldn't bother to do it, would you? And some you like, hopefully me, if he cares about me, he would then try a bit harder.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, because you're so full of empathy. If you're talking to someone who is a complete asshole, you’ll chat to them all night.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Or you’ll just wheel me out!

Andy McNab (ISTP): But you will talk to him all night and be nice and kind.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would be nice, yes.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I would rather just go, ‘Mate, we don't like you, we're off.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would not say that to someone.

Andy McNab (ISTP): They'll go, ‘Okay.’ That's it. You've just gone.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would never say that to someone.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I know you wouldn't. It works quite well, doesn't it? Sometimes when we want to just get away. If we’re like, ‘I don't want to talk to her.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Sometimes I find that you just have a real freedom and you just do what you want.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s fantastic.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You're not bound by shoulds and the woulds and the duties and the morals.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, but that's where you come in.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would be that going, ‘Oh, is that right? Is that the right fair decision?’ Then you just, you know, you're not horrible, but you just will think primarily about what do you want without too much consideration about everybody else.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It's quite black and white now, I suppose. Yeah.

Lou (ESFJ): You're very much head [Andy] and you’re very much heart [Lily].

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Exactly that. Together it obviously works. It's a good blend, yeah.

Jess (INFP): A good balance. It's interesting. You actually came out as a 100% thinking, which I've never seen any tests come out as before.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh really? That's really interesting.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Interesting. What I do a lot of times now, if there's stuff coming up, I know what I'd like to do, but then I always refer to Lily going, ‘Right, what should I be doing here?’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Also, it's great to have people like Andy in the world. Everybody has a place because if the shit hits the fan or if, I don't know, war breaks out or some major national disaster happens…

Andy McNab (ISTP): Zombie apocalypse.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): If a zombie apocalypse happens, Andy’s your guy. He is the one who will do as much as anyone could do to make the situation better. I would be rubbish in that situation. I would just panic, wouldn't I?

Lou (ESFJ): So obviously, Andy, you said when you went home to Lilly and you said, ‘I'm a psychopath,’ and she said, ‘And what?’ Did it then help you going forward?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I don't know if it helped, but I think it made me give up trying to sort it quite as much. I thought, ‘This isn't a man who is going to grow and suddenly become empathic. There was an understanding and an acceptance that actually, this is it. I can grip it and manage it in ways that make my life work better.

Andy McNab (ISTP): And I think you do.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He's not an ever-developing emotional creature, are you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): There's nobody, whether they are dysfunctional or functional, who would not choose to be as they are [as a psychopath], because there's so much freedom.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): What do you mean?

Andy McNab (ISTP): If you talked to criminal psychopaths in Broadmoor and all that, and you say, ‘If you could change it, would you?’ No, absolutely not. Everybody…

Lily McNab (ESFJ): …wants to be a psychopath

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. It’s in the condition. They don’t want to change it because there's so much freedom. It's great. The freedom to choose. She says, ‘No, don't do it like that.’ I go, ‘Yeah, alright.’ The way I would do it wouldn't work, because this is real world.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It is a bit like giving him a list of instructions sometimes.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, you do give me a list of instructions.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): In this situation, do this, this and this. Then he does it and then it all works fine.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, it all works fine.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Sometimes it takes the romance thing out of things!

Jess (INFP): It's so true what you said about everyone having their place in the world. That’s one of the beautiful things about applying a personality type framework is that you more consciously notice people's differences and similarities and you just realize that there's no right or wrong. If you are one thing, it often has disadvantages as well as advantages.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think after doing the Myers & Briggs test, I think it makes you more accepting of your differences.

Andy McNab (ISTP): We had all the pre stuff with the trials actually and when we'd done it we thought, ‘Well, it is right.’ because we sort of knew it. And actually it was spot on. Quite frankly, it worked.

Jess (INFP): Was there a moment of relief for you, Lily, when you found out that Andy was a psychopathic?

Lily McNab (ESFJ):  Yes, it somehow took the responsibility off me to try and make things right. I just thought, ‘Well, I can’t, you know? Nobody's going to win against a psychopath. I’ll just let some of that go. I’ll do the best I can.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): She's did it again. Miss Empathy here.

Lily McNab (ESFJ):  I have no idea where this conversation is going.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Do you remember when I chopped my finger off?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, he was doing something with an electric saw. I don't know what he was doing. I walked into the shed and I could see him sort of fiddling around over a table with a tube or something. And I said, ‘What are you doing?’ He said, ‘I've just cut my finger off. And I'm sticking it back on with super glue.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): It was the tip.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He literally just stuck it back on again with superglue. And then did you then go and get stitches later? I don't think you did, did you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): The superglue just stuck there and it healed in its own time.

Andy McNab (ISTP): A year beforehand she’d have gone, ‘Let’s go to hospital,’ and now she’s just like, ‘Alright.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I just let him get on and superglue his finger together, if that's what he wants to do.

It didn't make me happy [discovering Andy was a psychopath]. It was a relief, but I would say that discovering that you are a psychopath, you probably make less effort to fit in.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, I do.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Because, as you said, you quite like being a psychopath.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, I understand. Yeah.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You're less likely to do your cold empathy, aren’t you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, I think I’m very conscious when I do it. There's a group where it happens and for the rest, I really don't care. It's absolutely freeing. Even sort work-wise, instead of trying to get to somebody who really can't make a decision and all that, I just go to the guy who can. People don't really ever want to go and see him because I don't really know. You have some CEO in whatever country, just find out and get his email or give him a ring and just bluff it. That’s it.

Last year we tried to get to Bernie Saunders when he was in contest. We thought, ‘Let's try and get hold of him.’ I just rang the office and said, ‘Is Bernie in?’ The guy went, ‘Yeah, hold up.’ So I spoke with him and I said, ‘Well, mate, this is what we're after. Are you up for it?’ And he was so it was great. Do you know what I mean? It's quite freeing in a way that you don't have to worry about [things], whereas you would be worried about whether you're going to inconvenience them and whether you're going to upset people trying to get to him and all that sort of stuff. All he’s got to do is say yes or no, that's all he’s got to do.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. I will be much more indecisive by fault.

Jess (INFP): And much more thinking about the people-aspect of things?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yes, and the ramifications, whereas he’ll just get on with it.

Lou (ESFJ): Lily, what is the most challenging aspect about being married to a psychopath?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): The lack of empathy. I mean, I'm quite a happy person really. I'd say.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I'm quite able to look after my feelings, but I probably only got that way because I've been living with a psychopath. I mean, I wasn't like this at the start of the marriage; this vision of calm that you see now. It has not been plain sailing, has it? I mean, it's hard living with a psychopath.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, yes, because we didn’t really understand it all, did we?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No. We've had to kind of negotiate, sort it out and all the rest of it. I think it's just been like one long process of negotiation.

Andy McNab (ISTP): That’s where personality types come in. Even during all that drama of trying to sort it out, it was still working.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): If I was at death's door, he would feel that, because he could imagine himself being at death’s door and you would do everything to save me or do whatever was required. But if I just have something like flu, you wouldn't consider that very much.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Nah, get on with it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He wouldn’t consider that I felt a bit down and a bit fed up

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, I don’t see it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I might just need a little nurturing or a little bit of a bath run for me or something nice. You wouldn't see that at all, would you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Lou (ESFJ): Would you say there are some aspects that you find attractive?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. I mean, there's a fearlessness and a super confidence that I envy actually. You just get on and do things. You probably have a lot more fun in certain situations because you're not thinking that anxious thing and worrying about the outcome. So yeah, definitely. The supreme confidence. I would love to be that confident.

Jess (INFP): Do you think that you have more fun than Lily in life in general?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, totally. Totally because it’s freedom.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Freedom to not be held down by what’s right or wrong.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Because of my military background and all that, everybody expects me to be like this action man. Since getting out, I skied to the North Pole, skied to the South pole, down the Cresta run, all that sort of stuff, but everybody thinks I’m gagging to do it. I'm not, I get asked to do it and I go, ‘Yeah.’ If you’re going to get asked to, why not? And then everyone's going, ‘What? Are you going to the South Pole?’ Well, yeah. And it's like put skis on and go ski to the South pole. It's not brain surgery. You just get on with it. So there is more fun in that way, because there’s more opportunity.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Whereas I’m thinking, ‘Hmm, can I take the time off work? I don’t want to let my clients down for three months.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): And, ‘Will it be cold?’

Lou (ESFJ): And you just go for it.

Andy McNab (ISTP): In fact, next year I got offered to do this flight to the Point of Inaccessibility, which are the places on sea and land where it's the most distant from land. And there's a place by the South pole that is 1,200 kms away from South Pole. It's the only thing I've turned down because…

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well, you didn’t turn it down immediately?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, it was only because my daughter is getting married and she said, ‘Well, we don't want you to get dead before the wedding.’

Jess (INFP): Fair enough!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): We did say that to him actually.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No one has actually done it!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You picked the hardest part of it. I think only two people had tried it before and I think both planes went down. One went down and they died and then the other one went down and sadly he broke his neck or back.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Broke his back.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Then Andy, just on a whim, said, ‘Oh, I'll do it.’ All the other pilots were pilots and you've never flown a plane in your life. That's the difference. You'll do what you want completely, but if I or your daughter says definitely no then you will listen.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. But again, it's great, because then you've got the choice and opportunity to be like, ‘Ok, I’ll do it.’

Jess (INFP): Is there anything that you are scared of?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, but not in that like bravado sense. It’s because my amygdala doesn't work. What I haven't got is the fight or flight syndrome, which is part of the old Neanderthal part of the brain. What happens is that I don't have those natural reactions of being, not even scared, but even overexcited, it just doesn't happen. The fight or flight [response] doesn't happen [for me].

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think you lose out on a lot of the joy and the happiness, because you don't really feel the extremes of emotions.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, I don’t lose out because there's nothing to lose [out on] because it doesn't exist. So that's great. That's great stuff.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well it does exist because I feel it.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, I know but it's not as if it's something that I've ever felt. I have fun and all that, but if something was cancelled, I’d go ‘Oh alright’. I think one of the reasons is because it [my amygdala] doesn't work. It's part of the reason why you can't see other people's fear and all that. Certainly in the military it's great because then you go, ‘Yeah, alright, I'll do that.’ That's why it was good being in the military. I thought was great, but obviously it doesn’t work too well out in the real world. So it's not in a bravado sense because it's not as if I'm overcoming the fear and doing all this stuff, it just doesn't register. Everything's a game.

Jess (INFP): It's funny what you said, Lily, about missing out on the joy, because I think that I feel emotions quite strongly and I quite often think: would I prefer to feel them less strongly? Because I feel positive ones strongly and negative ones strongly. And then there’s always that question, right?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would always want to feel.

Jess (INFP): Yeah, me too.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I don’t want to be a psychopath. I know lots of people do. I really don't want to be one.

Jess (INFP): It’s also what you're used to as well.

Lou (ESFJ): You have a freedom that we don’t have.

Andy McNab (ISTP): And the beauty of that, even if you had the freedom, but then if you had the ability to have the ups and downs or the morality to go with it, that's when it really doesn't help, does it? Obviously if you can experience really extreme joy, therefore is your extreme sadness even more extreme because you understand extreme joy?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Probably.

Andy McNab (ISTP): All of a sudden everything's worse. It's like Armageddon.

Jess (INFP): I think when you're talking about this, it does actually sound very attractive. I was thinking, ‘Can I be a psychopath?’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It would be fun for just one day to feel what's going on in there. To really feel what you feel.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, what you can do is kill all the sensors that give you normality.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): By putting electrodes on your head?

Andy McNab (ISTP): So he electrode himself and it's really interesting because then it has to be compliant. It's like the mad professors are doing experiments on themselves and all that. I went down and they took my readings, they did it on this psychologist and then it became this quite famous thing in academia. He had if for about 15 minutes and he said it was like being really, really drunk on vodka, but without the effects of the alcohol.

Jess (INFP): Wow. That's so interesting.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He loved it, didn’t he? He loved the experience.

Andy McNab (ISTP): He absolutely loved it. And then he crashed.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He said he felt something like super powerful, super sexy, super free…

Andy McNab (ISTP): For about 15 minutes.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): And then he crashed.

Jess (INFP): I really want to do that.

Lou (ESFJ): I’ve never even thought in my life, ‘I wish I could feel things more. I wish I could feel things less.’ I just wouldn't.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, I’m very happy.

Lou (ESFJ): I would never even think about that. Now you're talking about it, I'm like, ‘Wow, that's cool!’

Jess (INFP): It's something that I've been through a phase of recently, something that I’ve been thinking a lot about. I just ask anyone who will listen, ‘How strongly do you feel things on a scale of one to 10?’ I love hearing the answers.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): How do we ever know compared to everybody else?

Jess (INFP): You will never know. You just have to guess. That’s the thing, no one will ever know.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would guess that I feel things strongly.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I think you do, yes. You feel both happiness and sadness strongly. They are extremes, aren’t they?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I do, I do. I’m not an extreme person.

Andy McNab (ISTP): But you get upset.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I just feel things. You don’t feel things. But I like it. I love being that way.

Jess (INFP): With one of my guy friends, I was like, ‘So how strongly do you feel things on a scale of one to 10? And he was like, ‘Oh, this is going to be really embarrassing to say.’ And I was like, ‘Oh God, he's going to be 10 out of 10 or whatever.’ He was like, ‘Three out of 10. I just really don't care that much Jess.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): And what were you?

Jess (INFP): I think…Oh, I think I'm probably a…

Lou (ESFJ): 10.

Jess (INFP): A nine, I would say.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Really?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): What are you, Lou? Because we’re the same [personality type].

Lou (ESFJ): I would say I'm more like a seven to eight

Jess (INFP): I would say you are a seven.

Lou (ESFJ): Whereas you [Jess] are a nine. Yeah, but I think we project them differently.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I thought you [Lou] would be higher than Jess.

Jess (INFP): That’s because Lou uses a function called extraverted feeling, and Lily you would use the same. I use a function called introverted feeling and my emotions are…I guess I'm slightly more private about them.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): More concentrated.

Jess (INFP): Yeah. Like when you meet me, I’m probably not overly friendly as such, but I do feel things it's just I don't show it as much. One thing that actually sometimes happens with ESFJs is they often absorbed feelings of people around them. I know, Lou, you do that.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I definitely do that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): She does that.

Jess (INFP): One of my friends who is an ENFJ, uses the same function, she sometimes finds it hard to disaggregate what she's feeling compared to what other people are feeling. I don't know if that is something that you experience?

Lou (ESFJ): I definitely absorb it, but I know it's not my emotions, but if I'm around people that are stressed or really unhappy, I feel really stressed, internally.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Absolutely.

Lou (ESFJ): The lucky thing with you is that with Andy, you actually have nothing to feel!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I should have said that actually! One of the massive advantages is I never have to deal with a lot of emotional…

Lou (ESFJ): Drama?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I’m going to make some up now.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): But I don't. He never wakes up like in a bad mood.

Jess (INFP): That’s so true.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): If you’re annoyed, you're annoyed for a reason. You don't ever get depressed and low or anything really like that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, it’s all good.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): In fact, my life's quite easy in that way. I don't have to nurture and prop this man up or any of that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Keep that bit.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Because he’s super confident, I never have to build his self-esteem.

Lou (ESFJ): And nor do you have to absorb his emotions.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No, it's really an easy ride in that way. This is excellent!

Andy McNab (ISTP): You’ve done alright!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I have done alright. I probably wouldn't do very well in a normal marriage. I’d have to deal with some guy's feelings. I haven’t done it for 20 years!

Jess (INFP): Maybe subconsciously you have known this for a long time.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Maybe that’s my freedom.

Jess (INFP): Yeah, exactly.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Just deal with my own emotions.

Jess (INFP): Andy, you said that you scored high on that psychopathy scale. What does that mean in terms of love? Can you love?

Andy McNab (ISTP): It's really the way that you look at love, because if you're looking at that as an emotional contract, well, no. Actually, it’s only since the Victorian times where this thing of love really evolved in a way of trying to get the family unit and the 2.4 children and all that sort of stuff in that Christian sort of setup.

The way that I look at it, is it's more like a mutual contract. There’s the fact that slavery has been abolished, so you're only in that union if you want to be. Obviously, there are things you've got to do to make sure you keep that union going from your side. All of the things that love is…so we're looking at this Victorian thing of love, so there's commitment, fidelity, all these sorts of things that were part of this love concept. Well actually that's really what two human beings should be doing anyway, without the love. If they want to be together and to do that living thing together with mutual respect. That love thing is a contract.

Jess (INFP): You see it as more of just a logical thing e.g. this makes sense?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, absolutely. Varying friends' marriages and all those things through life going on, I feel that I'm more committed than most of the people I know. Actually, you go, ‘Right, you're in that commitment. Get on with it.’ And that is it. Then do whatever it is, hence it really works well in the same way of, ‘Well, no, no, you've got that wrong. When you see this face, this is what you do.’ Because we want to be in that union, you go, ‘Right, do that.’ To me, it [love] is just a word. Because actually, even in a love relationship, there has got to be mutual respect and commitment on everything, 100% commitment. It's the same thing. So the love thing, I don’t really recognize it in that way because it's a concept.

Jess (INFP): You don't really get the whole butterflies in your stomach type thing?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. I think that it's great coming home. You know, you're going away, it's great coming home and all those sorts of things. But the fact of: are you capable of love? Well, no. It’s commitment.

Jess (INFP): I guess love means completely different things to different people as well, right? There's not one thing that constitutes love.

Lou (ESFJ): How does that make you feel, Lily!?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I don’t know how romantic that is! I think he’s right and there is a commitment. It's a choice and you choose to love someone every day. I can see that. I would say I feel the same way, but I can't help feeling there's a little bit of the fun and the romance lost in your description of it! It wouldn't be quite my view love. I think there's definitely much more of an emotional attraction when you're in love with someone. There's a sexual attraction and an emotional attraction and you're always wanting the best for them.

Andy McNab (ISTP): There is an emotional attraction in that way. You know, because we talk about everything. We do everything together because commitment is doing everything together. The only thing I actually own is a motorbike and nothing else I own because the commitment is to Lily. So it's like, ‘Well, fine.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I do feel your commitment. I mean, you're not terribly romantic, as you could probably hear in his answer!

Lou (ESFJ): Sharp!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I feel I would love a bit more of that, but I’ve just accepted that is just not how he is and that's not going to happen, but all the rest of it is there. I love the security of knowing he’s there, he's committed and he's choosing it. Right in the moment, I feel that you love me.

I did once ask him…I don’t know why I even went down this road, but I did ask him. It was a stupid late-night conversation and I said, ‘Would you be really sad if I died?’ I was expecting him to say, ‘Yes, I’d be devastated. I wouldn’t find another woman for at least 10 years.’ But he said, ‘Well, we just don't know, do we?’ We'd been together about 15 years at that point? We’d been together for 15 years and I said, ‘I think I'd like you to be a little bit sad.’ And he said, ‘Well, I probably would be…for a week or so. Maybe two weeks, but we don't know. Nobody knows. We just don’t know. I think probably I’d be sad for a week or two and then I probably would just think crack on.’ I remember thinking that was quite a disappointing answer, but I suspect it's a truthful one. I might be romantic, but I’m also pragmatic. Why would I want him to be sad after I'm dead, you know? Much better that he's happy and cracks on.

Jess (INFP): When Lily asked you that, did you know what answer she wanted to hear or not?

Andy McNab (ISTP): That’s part of the commitment, you see? It's saying, ‘Well, answer it truthfully.’ I look at that as part of the commitment.

Jess (INFP): I get what you mean. You're being more honest and committed by actually just saying it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): One upside of Andy's love is that he's only here with me because he wants to be. If he woke up and he didn't want to be, he wouldn't for a single second stay out of duty and loyalty. You would literally just think, ‘That's it, I'm off.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, no.

Jess (INFP): I see what you mean in that there wouldn't be any kind of like, ‘Oh God, I should do this, I should do that.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He wouldn’t just try to make it work. He would just go. The fact that you haven't gone in 20 odd years, I’m pretty certain that you want to be here.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, we’ll see.

Jess (INFP): Lily, what is love to you?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well, all those things that he's saying. The commitment, the loyalty and the getting up every day and choosing to love someone. But I do believe in the romance and this amazingly powerful emotional attraction, sexual attraction, all of that. I also think it's about bringing out the best in each other, supporting each other and seeing each other develop. Even if it's not to my benefit, you might want to develop in some other way, because if I love you, I would still let you develop in that way.

Lou (ESFJ): Lily, you've been married once before and, Andy, you've been married four times before, but you've be married to each other for 20 years now. What do you think it is that makes your marriage work?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, from my point of view, it's the commitment. And I think the compatibility, clearly has worked. I’ve actually found someone that is compatible because certainly when I was younger and getting married in the military, there were incentives to get married, so there was a little bit of that. Actually, in my head, I thought, ‘Right. Okay, well, I'm doing it.’ You get married and you have 2.4 children and a house and a garage and all that sort of stuff. Clearly nothing was compatible, so it all sort of went wrong. I was like, ‘Oh, okay, well I'll give it another go, see how that works.’ I think that it's the commitment because we've decided to be together from my point of view, but also the compatibility of our traits.

Lou (ESFJ): Your balance.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Clearly, it's working, isn’t it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I would say with my first marriage, he was a great guy. A really fabulous guy, but definitely Andy and I are opposites. I would say in my first marriage, we were much, much more similar. Certainly, this one has worked better and lasted much, much longer.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It has worked alright, hasn’t it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think it does go back to that opposites attract. I think there's never a dull moment. We’re never bored, are we?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think because we are obviously at opposite ends of the scale, there's a lot to learn from each other.

Lou (ESFJ): What do you guys talk about?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Everything basically, isn’t it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You know, the practical things of life. What we’ve got to do and what we do on a daily basis.

Andy McNab (ISTP): What we're doing individually as well. Some of your work you’ll ask for advice on.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You might ask for PR and marketing advice, editing advice. That sort of thing.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s a lot actually, isn’t it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I mean, you're not there reading me poetry!

Andy McNab (ISTP): Because I've got no, if you like, skill…You know, I’m not a doctor, a lawyer...

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You have a skill.

Andy McNab (ISTP): But not in that way professionally. So what it all is, is just getting out there, which is part of the psychopathy. It really, really helps. As I'm moving along, I’m just doing loads and loads of different things: film, publishing, or some of the military stuff that I'm still involved with. Actually, it’s great because what I can do is then come back, because sometimes you have really weird ideas. I come back and we talk a lot about what it is I've been doing and this is the idea I've got for going forward and she'd go, ‘No, you don't want to do that.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I say it much nicer!

Andy McNab (ISTP): That really, really helps with different types of work that I get involved with because basically I just have to have a go at everything, see what happens and see what works.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. In terms of communicating well with people and stuff like that. We talk about that and how best to do that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, yeah.

Jess (INFP): I feel like I'm a bit the same. I feel like I don't have one skill that I'm really good at that some people have, right? Actually, hopefully it’s setting up a dating app!

Andy McNab (ISTP): I find it very exciting. You don't like the uncertainty because you like things like bom, bom, bom [in order]. You’re like, ‘Well, what does that mean?’ I’m like, ‘Well, I don't know yet because we haven't done it.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I just think I like a bit more structure than you. You're very nomadic and don't need any kind of structure at all, whether that's food or life, but I just like a bit of an order, you know?

Andy McNab (ISTP): You do like a bit of an order.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I like meals, like breakfast, lunch, dinner. Whereas you just literally would eat when you're hungry or not bother.

Lou (ESFJ): Ice cream for breakfast?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah!

Lily McNab (ESFJ):  Anything like that.

Jess (INFP):  There are definitely similarities I think between you two being judgers and us two being perceivers.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Would you have ice cream for breakfast?

Jess (INFP): Yeah! So judgers feel more at ease when they've got plans in place.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yes! I like a plan. I like a plan A and a plan B.

Lou (ESFJ): You need the plan B when you're with Andy.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yes, you do need a plan B with Andy.

Andy McNab (ISTP): She will have a list of her lists.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yes, I do have lists of lists. Like a master list and a daily list.

Jess (INFP): That’s such a judger trait.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Is it? It’s very efficient.

Jess (INFP): Yeah. Whereas perceivers actually feel more at ease when they can keep the options open and they actually feel a bit boxed in by having a plan.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. I know. I quite like the plan. Whereas you can actually only plan three hours ahead I realized. But it's true. If you say to Andy, I don't know, if it's at like two o'clock in the afternoon you say, ‘Oh, what would you like for dinner?’ He will look at me like I’m absolutely manic. He’ll say, ‘Well how do I know?!’

Jess (INFP): So your previous marriages…do you think they've impacted your current marriage in any way? Like, did you learn things from them that have helped you now?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Jess (INFP): Okay.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No. They were what they were because it's in a different environment anyway. It was in a military context and all those sorts of things that were going on and actually no, you think they're in the past. Yeah. They’re gone, they didn’t work. Well, what we were saying, the only thing I actually own is a motorbike. That’s only because you can't get insurance on it and you don't have a license I suppose. The fact is that, even being the military and getting divorced, you just go, ‘Well you can have everything.’ You know, if there's loads of it – which there wasn't clearly, you know, I was in the military – it's the fact that you can have everything and then it's all done, and that's it.

Jess (INFP): You just have this confidence that it will all be OK?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, it’ll all be alright. We'll just do it again.

Lou (ESFJ): Have you learned anything?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I mean, it was 25 years ago, and it was a very brief time. I’d say no. I mean he was a lovely guy and I would just say the fit was wrong, you know?

Lou (ESFJ): So, what does an average Sunday look like for you?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well, I would teach yoga in the morning. I don’t know what you do, garden probably?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I tried lion poo to try and get rid of the badgers.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh! He has become obsessed with his lawn. He never did it before lockdown and now he thinks of nothing else and talks of nothing else. He’s obsessed with his lawn and even more obsessed with badgers.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, you just cut the grass and then the badgers come and eat.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): In fact, this is what happens on a Sunday afternoon, you just talk about badgers.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well this is lockdown on Sunday’s isn’t it. Yeah, it’s sorting that out.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I've got a lot of badger facts at my fingertips.

Jess (INFP): So did you order lion poo?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. Get it on Amazon. But it didn't work, they just eat it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Apparently they don't like lion poo. I thought he was going down to the zoo when he said he was getting it. I mean, who knew!? Amazon, £30 a box. Mind you, it doesn’t work.

Lou (ESFJ): is it lion poo or is it just…?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well exactly. So it didn’t work, we just saw them on a camera eating it. So I thought ‘That isn’t going to work.’

Lou (ESFJ): Badger cam!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, so I do yoga and he does badgers in the morning then you like a Sunday roast so we probably go out for Sunday roast. We might go out in the boat; we’ve got a little…

Andy McNab (ISTP): Rib!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): We like that. I like to pootle up the creeks and you'd like to go really, really fast in the open water.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Sound quite good, doesn’t it? Normally then I'll be going away, say Tuesday or something, Certainly as lockdown is going backwards.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. I think the success of our marriage is probably dependent a lot on the fact that you've not been there for half of it.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah! I haven’t been there. That’s why it’s worked.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You have been away for quite long periods, haven’t you?

Lou (ESFJ): But that’s quite nice isn’t it.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. And then sometimes, if you like the place, you'll come, but if you don't, you don’t.

Jess (INFP): It's interesting what you said about how it's still exciting all these years on and I think that's so important. It's something that I think I would never compromise on.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): There's never that much of a routine that we just know exactly what's going to happen next. Also we’re just so different. I think you never quite know what the other one's going say. We know each other really well but you can always surprise me with something weird.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, not nice things, weird things! I think that we're all dead soon. So it's like ‘Yeah, great. You've got to enjoy it!’ Fact is you are, you know what I mean? So why worry too much about it? Just get on with it because you're all dead. That's it.

Jess (INFP): Yeah, it’s true. Why worry?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, why worry about it, we’re all dead. Years ago, we used to go Costa Rica, like two or three trips we'd done there. You'd see all these guys in their sixties and seventies, who went there in the seventies, Americans as students for the surfing, and they've got their little surfing shack now and they're married to local women and they’ve got grown up kids and all that. They’re just sitting on the beach there and you look them and you think ‘Who's got the right idea here?’ Everything is alright.

Jess (INFP): Yeah, but at the same time, I think people get satisfaction from such different things. Someone might get so much satisfaction from surfing on a beach for days on end, but someone might get a lot of satisfaction from setting up a company or counselling people.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, you're right. You're absolutely right. Absolutely right. And that's the beauty of opportunity and choice, isn't it? Just being able to give it a go. Again, because there's no discernible skill at doing something. Whether you're some professional or whatever. So when we try things and then if it works, it works. If it doesn't, well it doesn't matter, I just get out of it and then try something else. That's quite nice. And well, you worry it's all going to go wrong, but then once we're out of it you go ‘Okay. We'll just crack on.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I do think I have learned some good things from you. One of the things I've said I’ve learned is that you just only worry about what you've got control over. If you haven't got control [over it], you don't waste a single second on it, which is hard to do, actually.

Jess (INFP): I try and consciously do that. If I'm on a plane and there is crazy turbulence and everyone is panicking, I'm like ‘Okay, if I die, I die.’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think it's hard to it. Whereas you really naturally do that, don't you? You knock yourself out with sleeping pills on a plane because you just want to have a nice sleep. Whereas I think I must stay awake because if plane gets hijacked, somebody has got to be awake to fly the plane. Of course, I can’t actually fly a plane but I think what I'll do is I'll wake him up and you will land it.

Lou (ESFJ): Do you feel that you kind of push each other out of your comfort zones?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You push me out of my comfort zone, or you used to. I'm on to you now.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, you’re on to me now.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, I would definitely say you do that. I think everybody thinks, ‘Oh, you're with Andy McNab, you must just feel so safe because he's always in charge and together.’ And it's true, you are that. When there's a crisis, you are there. But more than anyone, you will take me out of my comfort zone because you will want to do something that I would consider much more reckless than I would normally do.

Jess (INFP): Do you have an example of that?

Andy McNab (ISTP): We’ll be here all night.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, we went diving. Where were we? I can’t remember what country we were in.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Maldives.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Maldives. And we did our PADI course and both passed. We'd gone out on our first ever dive. We were on a big boat with loads of other people and so we were just on our own to do our first proper dive. I couldn't remember what the weight was that you had to put on you when you dive off the boat because you have a bit of weight when you're diving to help you sink down. You couldn't remember what it was either. So I said ‘is it one kilogram or is it two?’ And you had no idea what it was. So you just do what you always do and you just made something up. You went something like, ‘It's 10 kilograms.’ He had no idea what the weight was but rather than saying, ‘Well, let's stop,’ you said, ‘Get on with it, get on with it! It’s 10 kilograms.’ And I believed him in those days. So I clip this 10 kilogram weight onto me and then I walk over to the plank. I was just about to dive off the boat and then the captain spotted me and blew his whistle and just shouted to everybody, ‘STOP THAT GIRL!’ It was really embarrassing and I got stopped and I got back in. Andy had put this vast weight on me and if I’d dived, I would have sunk down to the bottom and never, ever come up. The reason is, is because he just can't apply how he is and what he feels to how I feel. For him, he would have this 10 kilogram weight. He wouldn't care if it was the wrong weight because he’d just dive off and just think, ‘Oh, I'm sinking to the bottom. This isn't very good.’ So very calmly, you’d unclip your weight and you’d be fine.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, it’s all quick release.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): But what he can't do is put himself in my shoes. He can't think, ‘Oh, she's just passed her PADI. She's really nervous. She's not thinking. She's going to panic when she's under water, so she won't be able to unclip the clips. She's going to get in a total state and die.’ That wouldn't cross your mind, would it?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No.

Jess (INFP): It may well have happened.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It may well have happened if it wasn't for that nice captain. But I think that taught me that actually I shouldn't let myself get out of my comfort zone and I should trust my intuition. I knew at the time that he…I didn't know that you were making it up, but I just thought it was all a bit random, wasn’t it? He just made up something. Before, when we've gone down back alleyways, you’ve said, ‘Let's go for a nice walk. At two in the morning we'd been in some back alleyway somewhere really rough. And we ended up going down in some tight, little back alley with lots of drug dealers and people around and stuff like that. And I'm just thinking, ‘Why am I even here? This isn't a nice walk!’ But you are just as likely to get me out of my comfort zone as you go are to save me. If I'm in deep trouble so now I try and trust my instincts a little better.

Jess (INFP): Does Lily push you out of your comfort zone? Or do you even have a comfort zone?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Not so much in those parameters but I think in a way that [is different]… Well, years ago we lived in Norfolk and the set-up there was very old and traditional where you had the hall with the farms and all that sort of stuff. We'd end up going around to these people's houses and it was getting actually quite boring really because I had no relation to what those sorts of people are. In some cases, literally I've sat there once, and I could not understand this woman because her accent was so RP. I sat there and then after a while, because she's waiting for an answer or she's asking questions, you know, sort of polite dinner talk, I said, ‘Look, I can't understand you,’ which was good because then it was sorted, wasn’t it? But then, Lily didn’t really like that.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It was verging on rude.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Actually, where you would say about those things, ‘Actually, some of the people I like and all that, so you need to go. You need to do those sorts of things,’ to the point where then you said, ‘I don't like it anymore.’ Because it was a bit stuck up its own arse, wasn’t it? You'd actually do these things. So yeah, it felt uncomfortable in a way that I really didn't want to be there. And literally, it's almost cliché, but I couldn't understand what they were saying.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): There are social situations where I probably would've got you out of your comfort zone.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah and I'll do them because you want to do them, but I'd rather not be there quite frankly because I have nothing in common with them at all.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No that's true. But we don't really do that anymore.

Lou (ESFJ): I feel like that’s quite an extrovert-introvert thing as well. I have that with my boyfriend. We're the same personality types as you and sometimes he really likes the social situations and he kind of encourages them. He’s like, ‘Ooh, should we have a dinner party?’ but on an intimate level with everyone he likes there.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, I’ll do it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You won’t enjoy it.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Nah, I’ll just get on with it. Just crack on and get on with it. So you're not horrible there, but that, if you like ‘comfort zone’, I don't want to be in it, but I do know that I need to be there because Lily wants me there.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. I think you're quite good really in that you do that because you know it makes me happy.

Lou (ESFJ): In that situation, can you turn it on?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, easy. Easy. Easy. Easy. Just smile a lot.

Jess (INFP): You can do it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. You’re never going to lose your temper.

Lou (ESFJ): So, nobody would know you don’t like it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No. He’s very well behaved.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, just get on with it.

Jess (INFP): And how do you guys deal with conflict?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well, he shouts. I'm very calm and it escalates. Then all I do is I just bring it down, bring it down, bring it down. You go away for about a day and then you calm down and then you come back and you go, ‘Oh yeah. You know you were right.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. That’s about right.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): And sometimes you say, even at the time you knew I was right but you just weren’t going to tell me that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah because it’s fun, isn’t i?.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No, no, no. It's not fun.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It's quite funny when you get really angry.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I rarely get angry.

Andy McNab (ISTP): When you’re angry and jumping up and down it’s quite fun, isn’t it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I'm very expressive so I will tell him my feelings all along the way but maybe once a year he'll do something that I would find really, really irritating. And then I will explode, but that's probably once a year. Whereas you do it on a much more regular basis. Flare up. And then I don't even try to fight my cause at that point, I just bring it all down and calm it all down because when he’s like that you’re never going to get anywhere. I let it all calm down and then you work it out and then you buy me some garage flowers.

Lou (ESFJ): At least it's not just a cup of tea.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. But years ago, when she used to get really angry, it was really funny. I’d start laughing or smiling and make her angrier but I’m not allowed to do that now.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You’d say I’d stamp my foot like a little child.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It was funny.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You'd been really bad. I can’t remember what it was.

Andy McNab (ISTP): When was it? It was like about 10 years ago. It's really funny. We were having a row and then both of us started really laughing because it was all stupid.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh yeah. We have done that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Because I was in a kid’s home and then got adopted and all that – it was a sort of weird adoption – I had no like nursery rhymes or points of reference and all that sort of stuff. Obviously then getting into the military, the, if you like ‘social references’, I'm really bad at – films and music or nursery rhymes in particular or like kids films. So, we were having a big row and it was that… Tigger?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh, I know what it was. We were having a row because I'm usually pretty happy and then just the one day I was not upbeat and happy, which is very unusual for me, and you were just very, very unsympathetic and unsupportive because I wasn't being all happy and bouncy. I was quite cross about this and I said, ‘I can't be like Tigger all the time and just jumpy and happy all the time.’ And he had no idea who Tigger was and my sister-in-law is also called Tigger. He said ‘I barely know that Tigger. Why are we talking about Tigger?’ and I go, ‘No! I’m not talking about that Tigger, Tigger Winnie the Pooh Tigger.’ He had no reference, literally didn’t know who Winnie the Pooh was, didn’t know who Tigger was, didn’t know who Eeyore was and then we just started laughing because it was just ridiculous. I mean a whole conversation that he doesn't know what I'm talking about.

Lou (ESFJ): How does your daughter deal with it? Like the reading emotions?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh, she's completely gorgeous and lovely and normal.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Well, there's a little bit of freakiness there. She likes the adventure. Even as a kid where you would go, ‘I don’t want to do that,’ she would go ‘Yeah!’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Oh yeah. As a child, she was very trusting of her dad and he would just be very, very safe and then they would do these crazy things together. I would be going, ‘You're not doing that with her!’ Do you remember, he took her on the back of his bike because – she was young, I mean, I don't know how young – but he said, ‘Let's become a member of the ton up club.’ So they're going along and they were doing over one hundred miles an hour and then, bombing along, he said, ‘Bang on the window of a passing car.’

Andy McNab (ISTP): So, we'd get up level with a car, we'd go down the lanes, get up level and because they won't see you…bang!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): They came back and his daughter – I say his daughter, she’s my stepdaughter but she’s my daughter too – and she goes, ‘Oh my god! It’s so exciting Lily, he taught me how to bang on the things.’ I was livid with him! I mean you do not take a young child and make it fun to be going one hundred miles an hour. It’s downright dangerous to be banging and rapping on people's screens. You could cause an accident. And that was my once a year rage.

This is another year's rage…We had friends of mine staying. We had a house in the South of France, and we had friends staying and we were doing a barbecue and I was doing all the food and we had lots and lots of people coming. I said to Andy, ‘There’s lots of young kids. There are three or four young lads aged eight and ten.’ I said, ‘You entertain the kids and I’ll just do all the rest of it. I'll do all the foods, all the stuff. It's all fine.’ So, I got on with all the kinds of chores, the housework, and he was round the back of the house having fun with the kids and I can hear them laughing. I thought, ‘Oh, that's great. He's entertaining the kids.’ And then at one point I went around there, and they were being really entertained because he was teaching them how to fire eat with… what was it?

Jess (INFP): A taser?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Paraffin.

Jess (INFP): Oh, no.

Lou (ESFJ): A taser?!

Jess (INFP): I’m not good with that stuff.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He’s teaching them how to put paraffin in their mouth and he was just about to teach them how to light it and blow it out and I go, ‘Are you out of your mind?!’ And there are the parents around the corner.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It wasn’t a good weekend, was it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He doesn’t have that sense of danger. He goes, ‘Well they're very sensible. I'm teaching them what to do right.’ You don’t teach anyone’s kids, not your own or anyone else’s! I had a complete explosion and even to this day, actually, I'm a bit ashamed of that.

Andy McNab (ISTP): The kids loved it. It was good fun.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): They completely loved him! Then later he burnt all the sausages because I put him in charge of that and the sausages were literally black. We had nothing left ready to eat but bread and cheese. But these kids were so happy and so loyal to Andy that they came around and they were munching these burnt sausages going, ‘They’re absolutely delicious! They’re really nice!’

Andy McNab (ISTP): It was great! But kids like all that.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Kids love him! You’ll be going over and mock roasting them on the spit and doing all sorts of things. Whereas I’ll be there going, ‘Let's read this lovely book’ and they’re not at all interested.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s good fun.

Jess (INFP): Do you think emotions rush up on you? And all of a sudden, it's like BOOM?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. There's no build up. It's kind of like, ‘Now is the time to have the hump.’

Lou (ESFJ): Do you ever regret things that you've said if you have that sudden burst of anger?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Lou (ESFJ): Do you feel regret?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, because it’s done.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): But you do say that, like we were saying earlier, you do say that you knew at the time that I was right and you were wrong.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. I just do it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): So you do regret it don't you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No. It’s done.

Lou (ESFJ): So maybe you don't regret it. Are you apologetic?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No. I mean you've probably said sorry twice in 20 years. But, to be fair, he has bought a lot of garage flowers and that's your way because I know what he means to say is sorry, but he's never going to say he's sorry. He won't even give me the flowers. He'll just put them on the table in the kitchen. I'll try and eek it out. I go, ‘Oh! What are these flowers doing here?’ And he goes, ‘Well I just saw them and I bought them.’ And I go, ‘Oh, did you buy them for me?’ He goes, ‘Yes!’ I think he's going to go, ‘Oh and sorry,’ but he never does. That’s enough. I know it means sorry.

Jess (INFP): Does sorry just not mean that much to you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No. It's like, I don't really care.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Actually, to be fair, what you would say is, ‘Tell me what you want me to do. Give me a list.’ I don't want to give him a list just so he can then just tick that off his list. I want him to understand, because I like to think of myself as being reasonable and fair, I want him to know that it’s a reasonable request that he will accept and then do, but he's not interested. He doesn't care if it's reasonable or completely loopy, if he’s given the list, he'll just do it and that is really irritating. I mean the early days of our marriage, I think as he had come out of the military, he would just command me and just used to just dish out these commands. You’d go, ‘I’m going to be away, mow the lawn!’

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s a bit optimistic, that!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Ok, that one is not true, but he would come out with a command like…

Jess (INFP): Watch the badgers?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yes. Watch the badgers! I can remember saying to you, ‘Whatever command you're going to give me, stop and rephrase it as a question because if you just keep commanding me, I'm just going to not do it because I’m so irritated with you. I’m not going to do it. But, if you actually put it as a question, then you would go, ‘Would you watch the badgers for me?’ And I would go, ‘Yes! I’d be delighted to.’ I can remember training you up.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. I remember that.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): That made a big difference to me, just being requested rather than commanded.

Jess (INFP): Lily, you've said that you love Andy's fearlessness and Andy, you said that you really love Lily’s empathy, is there anything that you would change about each other's personality?

Andy McNab (ISTP): I think it would be Lily’s, if you like, just calibrating the empathy so it's more focused because there's so much empathy going out for everything, from an ant to a Martian. I think because there's so much energy that you use with things you've got no control of, which we spoke about before. It is literally from an ant to an alien. If an alien landed, you'd be worried about if it's lost rather than if it’s going to blow us up. But that’s it really, I think it's that sort of understanding that there's so much you can't do.

Jess (INFP): Would you change that about yourself?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, I probably would. Yeah, probably a little bit. Probably not as much as he would want me to, but yeah, I would probably turn the dial up on that just to keep the focus a little bit more on us or me.

Jess (INFP): And then same for you?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): For him, I would change your dial. I mean, I would make you more empathetic, just a bit more. It would just make my life a lot easier if you would just get how I felt more easily. And I would change when you explode, when you get angry and you explode, I would just cut that bit out altogether. Skip to the next day when we’ve actually worked it out.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Or get the flowers.

Lou (ESFJ): And then what challenges have you faced as a couple?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): What, together?

Lou (ESFJ): Yes.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Well, I’ve been married to a psychopath for 20 years. I’ve had 20 years of challenges but, as we were saying earlier, never a dull moment.

Jess (INFP): Have you had any tough patches that you've had to work through?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): For sure. I mean lots. I mean you've been married 20 years, anyone's going to. Married to a psychopath, you are going to have.

Andy McNab (ISTP): In the early years I was going away so much.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah. I wasn't so good in the early years. I wasn’t so strong I don’t think.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I was away all the time in the military anyway. So to go away, I don't know, if you go, ‘Do you want to go to Los Angeles two months?’ I’ll go, ‘Yeah. Alright.’ And then say, ‘Right, I'm off. Do you want to come or not?’

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No, he would never say, ‘Do you want to come.’ I would say, ‘Do you want me to come?’ And he’d go, ‘It's up to you.’ I wanted him to go, ‘I want you to come.’ I think I wasn't so great though. I think I was a bit needy in those years. Actually, I don't think I was brilliant.

Andy McNab (ISTP): We had a row on mobiles once. My bill was $400 and your one was about £600 because you'd done it from a hotel. We had a row. I was in Los Angeles in the shopping centre having a row.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You deserved it. You still deserve it.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Because the fact is, I was still away.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): He’d just say ‘yes’ and he wouldn't give a thought to the fact that I would be there on my own for months or whatever so that was difficult. I think the early years were difficult and I think I wasn't as independent. I think I’d imagined a marriage where your husband was around. I think my fantasy was around, ‘Are we going to have kids?’ It was all a kind of thing and then suddenly you were off all the time. That was really hard.

Andy McNab (ISTP): We did have, in the contracts, a sex clause. What was it?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): On, that’s not us! In film, not him and me. In film it was a common thing that if you are away and you're making a film, like he often was, they will put in the contract, and we used to just jokingly call it the sex clause, but they would have in the contract that if you were away for more than three weeks at a time, they'd fly your wife over. We used to just call it the sex contract.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Then she was happy.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Then I could go over more. But yeah, I mean, certainly over 20 years, there have been times when I think both of us have felt, ‘Does it need to be this hard work?’ Would you say that?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No. Not at all.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You’ve never felt that? Oh dear! I have felt that over 20 years sometimes.

Jess (INFP): I think that's fairly normal.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I do think that’s fairly normal.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It's like that whole thing of no one's keeping you there. So you do the best you can and if it works for you, you’re there and if not you go.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): And we are here.

Lou (ESFJ): But it's still a challenge.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It’s a challenge. Yeah. I would say.

Jess (INFP): I don't think challenges are actually a bad thing in life, they help you grow as a person. If you didn't have any challenges, you just wouldn't grow in any way.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think there's something weird about a 20-year marriage, if you've never actually at any point thought, ‘is this the right move for me?’ I think there's something weird about that.

Lou (ESFJ): I think it's quite interesting, what you said, Lily, you said you weren't so independent 20 years ago and you weren't so tough and things like that. You've obviously grown a lot.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I have grown a lot. I think that's just because I was left alone to my own devices and I think at the beginning I used to pine a bit. I'd be doing whatever I was doing in life and I was just waiting for him to come back. And then as soon as he came back, everything was fabulous again. Then he'd go again and I’d just be waiting and waiting and waiting. This went on for years and years and years. I just thought, ‘I can't live my life like this. I'm wasting months and months of my life each year, because he's just not around. He's just not there.’

And then you weren't always picking up on my feelings and how I felt about things. And I just think in the end, if no one's doing it for you, you start to learn to do it for yourself. And I just sort of started going out and creating my own life and getting more interesting jobs and things that I wanted to do. Then of course he comes back and it's hard because I've got this whole other life going on and I’m trying to manage the two things. But yeah, I think I was needy in the beginning. I don't think I was terrific. I probably wasn't a terrific wife in the first few years.

Lou (ESFJ): But I don't think that means you were a bad wife.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): No, but I think I struggled with it all and the psychopathy. I struggled with the whole thing.

Andy McNab (ISTP): In my head, I’m going away earning money because it's buying all the stuff.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You never gave me another thought, did you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You were never thinking, ‘Is my wife alright at home?’ I mean it just wouldn’t cross your mind.

Andy McNab (ISTP): No. I actually thought you would be. Because otherwise you would tell me or you’d come over.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I did tell you.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, but it's too late then because I've already stayed there working.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): So yeah, I think I've grown a lot as a person. I’ve got a much stronger sense of my own boundaries and what's right for me and what isn't good.

Jess (INFP): Have you noticed that too?

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s good. I think it’s great. I say something to like, ‘Well what about this?’ and she goes, ‘No.’ And I go, ‘Oh, alright.’ It's as simple as that really.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I think I'm not frightened of rocking the boat in the way that I was when I was younger. You know, I think I would think, ‘Oh God, it'll all go wrong.’ Whereas now I just think well it may go wrong, but I'm still expressing it, so it is a shift.

Lou (ESFJ): That’s really important though.

Jess (INFP): You’ve had things like almost sinking to the bottom of the ocean to toughen you up.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I have had to toughen up a bit.

Andy McNab (ISTP): That ploy didn’t work, did it?

Lou (ESFJ): Obviously Andy can't think more than three hours ahead, but what are you most looking forward to in your future together?

Andy McNab (ISTP): Staying fit and just having some fun, really. Just doing stuff. Again, going back to what we were saying before, we’re all dead soon, so it's like staying fit enough to be able to do stuff.

Lou (ESFJ): What about you?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Yeah, same. Staying fit but also for me to be calmer and more settled and less running around as much as we have been over the years. You've got badgers to think about.

Andy McNab (ISTP): I’ve got badgers.

Lou (ESFJ): The important stuff.

Jess (INFP): Do you think you’ll be less nomadic than you have been in the past?

Andy McNab (ISTP): No, no. I think the other way around actually. I think that would be again because there’s more choice and opportunity like going to places. It's never going to happen, but I keep on mentioning it to Lily to see if it's going to happen, but it’s maybe spending say four months a year in a city like Berlin.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): You had this idea the other day that we should spend three months in Berlin, three months in Australia, three months somewhere else and then three months at home.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It would be great.

Lou (ESFJ): I just think that doesn’t sound fun.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It doesn’t sound fun to me.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Why?

Lily McNab (ESFJ): Because you can't really do anything enough for long enough. My friends are here. Even if you planted something, you’d never see it flourish and grow, would you?

Andy McNab (ISTP): That’s alright. But I know it’s never going to happen so I always mention it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I don’t want to be so nomadic and we have been. I'd rather not. But then you go off and do your own and actually, that's the other thing I should say, I've had a lot of freedom and independence because you go off and do your thing and I go off and do my own thing.

Lou (ESFJ): And that’s why it works as well.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah. It does work alright doesn’t it.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): A lot of marriages aren't able to have that. They can't cope with it in the way that we have, that's a really positive thing. So whatever we‘re doing, I’m sure we’ll make it work for us.

Andy McNab (ISTP): It’s alright. And obviously, because of not having an education, getting an education for me was in the military. What I'm finding now is I’m getting the time to actually catch up on stuff. Not so much an academic education, but all the stuff where you’d, say, read Dickens. I’ll be going to read Great Expectations and Lily will go, ‘I read that when I was 14.’ Not in a bad way. It's quite nice now having a bit more time to catch up. Not that it's going to get me anywhere or doing anything, but it's interesting to do those things you hear about whatever it is, whether it's a classic or whatever it is.

Jess (INFP): Getting more up to speed up on who Tigger is.

Andy McNab (ISTP): Yeah, there might be that!

Jess (INFP): Cool. Well thank you so much.

Lily McNab (ESFJ): It was fun!

Andy McNab (ISTP): Thank you!

Lily McNab (ESFJ): I’ve learned a lot about my marriage.

Andy McNab (ISTP): We’ll give you an update of how it goes in a months’ time’.

Lou (ESFJ): And to have the first McNabb couple interview ever!

Andy McNab (ISTP): And probably the last.       

Lou (ESFJ): Andy and Lily’s real names have not been used for security purposes.